Ever since Ruger started selling LCPs by the truckload back around 2008, a question that many believed to be a settled matter was thrust back into the spotlight: Is .380 ACP just another under-powered mouse gun round on par with the likes of the diminutive .25 ACP, or is it a serious caliber for self-defense, worthy of trusting your life to? We could ask this question of any number of so-called “marginal” self-defense cartridges. But each cartridge has special issues to consider. So rather than trying to establish the One True be-all, end-all, one-size-fits-all minimum acceptable caliber, we’ll tackle .380 by itself and present the pros and cons as best we can.
A Preface to Caliber Debates
Before we venture too far into the dangerous territory of caliber debates, let’s remember a couple of things right up front. First, handguns are universally bad at stopping determined attackers when compared to rifles and shotguns. Comparing the raw effectiveness of .380 ACP, .45 ACP, and 5.56 NATO is like comparing a cheeseburger from a public school cafeteria, a day-old Arby’s sandwich, and a perfectly cooked medium rare Angus Filet. Sure, there might be some difference in the quality of those first two meals, but they are just not in the same league as that steak, even though it’s all beef (in theory, at least).
The “one shot stop” handgun is a myth. They do happen in the real world, and fairly regularly. But there is no predictable correlation between one-shot stops and the cartridge used to achieve them. It’s not something we can depend on with a handgun cartridge. Handguns have the advantage of portability, but it’s always a trade-off of size and accessibility for effectiveness. To stop a determined attacker with any handgun, assume that multiple hits to a vital area will be required. As the cliché goes, “shot placement is king.” The number on the slide of your pistol is not nearly as important as possessing the skill to fire accurately under pressure, and the ability to exercise good judgment on when to pull the trigger.
It was good enough for James Bond.
And it can't be "somewhere between" 22LR and 9mm because the .380 ACP cartridge is a 9mm round.
It works for me, I would recommend it.
The biggest problem with .380s is that most of them are straight blowback, which tends to give them more recoil than a gun of similar size and weight with a locked breech. So you can have a 9mm that handles about the same as a .380, but packs enough power to push it into what I consider a more acceptable defensive cartridge.
I have a .380 in my mix and it'll do the job. Especially with someone who can place their rounds where they aim. I can do that so caliber is not a problem with me.
.380= 9.65mm, bigger than a 9mm but less powder. There is your question, know your sizes before commenting.
Yes, with laser to aid shot placement.
Perfect for summer carry.
My Sig has almost no recoil and is very accurate!!
I have the Walter PK-380 , very accurate, and if you use Buffalo load very effective.
I think the fact that the .380 is available at a pretty low cost in a descent gun while still being small and light make's the chance of a person actually having it when they need it a neat little caliber. I don't carry one just because I feel a little under gunned working in a rare coin shop but that's just me. Hey, the best gun I could ever have is the one I have when I need it! I do carry a little North American Arms .22 WMR in my pocket also and often forget it is in there. I always say any gun is better than a rock and faster than a prayer! That's just me though, not science. My .45 is usually left at home because of it's weight, I wear a 9mm because even high capacity it is light, P99 and pretty accurate. Not the most powerful but probably the one I will have do I like it and practice with it.
Shot placement is more important than caliber. Much smaller calibers have plenty of fatalities under their belts.
I have no problem with my .380 with kick or getting back on target for double tap. The only issue with the .380 and self defense loads they don't have enough power for a self defense load with the expansion of the bullet, BUT if you use regular ball or round loads it is more than adequate.
I think with hollow points it'll do the job, I carry one, yes, because it's small. My preferred gun is my 45 sig but at 115 lbs I'm hard pressed to conceal it. I feel plenty safe:)
2 in the chest and 1 in the head and the bad guy will never know the difference between the 380 and a 45…
Love mine
.380 ACP uses .355" bullets, same as 9mm Parabellum/Luger/x19 NATO.
The name doesn't reflect reality. It's a vestige of the days when guns were switching from heel based bullets to inside lubricated.
Originally a ".38" caliber cartridge used a bullet that had the same diameter as the cartridge case and a smaller diameter "heel" that fit inside it. That made it easy to build cartridge conversion for cap and ball guns – the charge holes in the cylinder could be bored straight through.
Unfortunately, the lube used on those lead bullets was messy and came off, so they began making bullets that were the diameter of the *inside* of the case with the lube grooves protected by the case mouth. For a while they used hollow based bullets that were supposed to expand in the bore to make a good seal, but that didn't work very well. The switch was made to using a barrel that had a bore that matched the smaller bullets. The cartridges that were originally .38s became in reality 0.355-0.357s. The nomenclature carried on even into cartridges that were named well after the black powder ere – including the .380 ACP, .38 ACP (and .38 Super), .44 Special and Magnum (which are really 0.429"), etc.
Now you know.
I am confident with my .380 and it depends on the user to zero in with the target… If you are used to it, It's a good handgun. I call mine mini .45…
As long as I can shoot it accurately, it will do what I need it to do.
Hollie Brogan what you doing in here lol, your gun is not really what is considered a low cost gun 😉
i have the same one, billfold holster. that girl will spit some fire at night.
I'm pretty sure most people will assume that 9mm=9×19, which is what I meant to imply. But thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, Winchester talon, great round and very consistent but hard to find.
if you can't aim, get a shotgun or a pistol that can take shotgun rounds. if you practice and know how to handle a pistol, a .380 round well placed will stop anyone. A poorly placed .45 or even 50 cal round will only wound and piss off your attacker. Even a .22 will make most attackers run away if you hit them center mass, or kill them if you aim and are close enough. You don't need to blow off an arm or leg with a poorly placed round when you can make one small hole and stop their heart.
James Bond's PPK is a 32 caliber.
James Bond's PPK is a 32 caliber.
Very good point, though I would emphasize the "most" part of your observation. The Sig P238, for example, tends to be pretty easy to handle for its size (though I think it has other drawbacks that make it a less than ideal option). That said, one should not assume anything about what the felt recoil of a .380 will be until they get a chance to shoot it… the recoil mechanism does make a big difference.
Very good point, though I would emphasize the "most" part of your observation. The Sig P238, for example, tends to be pretty easy to handle for its size (though I think it has other drawbacks that make it a less than ideal option). That said, one should not assume anything about what the felt recoil of a .380 will be until they get a chance to shoot it… the recoil mechanism does make a big difference.
Even more so.
And in the novels, James Bond started with a .25 ACP. I wouldn't exactly look to 007 as a mentor for wisdom in caliber selection.
I would have said no yeas ago, but with modern ammunition like Speer Gold Dot, COrbon DPX, and Hornady Critical defense, I would say yes, the 380 is a worthy caliber for self defense. Besides, any bullet to the head will end a fight quickly. The first round is usually to the chest area to stun the attacker, the second shot is crucial to your own survival. It can either be another chest shot or take the head shot while the attacker is stunned.
if the attacker is wearing bulletproof armor, take that suckers legs out from under him. three rounds to each leg will make him wish for a head shot
I think that with more marginal cartridges like .380, .32 acp, & .25 acp it's better to go with FMJ. Hollow points may sacrifice too much penetration.
if you it .380 is perfect.goog article
LG Chris especially since he is fictional.
I have a Bersa Thunder .380 that I used to carry concealed. I am as accurate with it at the range, one or two handed as I am with my S&W 9mm Shield which I carry now. As many have already said, shot placement counts for so much more than caliber. Two center mass and one to the head with anything is better than one in the arm, and two over the top of the target in large caliber. Carry what is comfortable, what you can carry safely, and practice with it often.
Well, as evidenced by the shooter at the movie theater in Florida, YES. This old retired police officer shot and killed a man using a .380 caliber gun.
i carry a Bersa 380 Thunder CC and love it. small enough to conceal if i want, big enough to open carry if i want.
Only if it wasn't loaded with the ammo I make in my basement lol
AMT Backup……solid well made gun with good ammo it gives you a nice shot. Have carried mine for years.
The best gun is the one you have with you.
I own one as well and no one ever knows I have it on me. And for those that are not sure about it or don't think it has enough power….I will ask you this question.Would you want to stand in front of it?
You have to take into consideration the size of the carry gun and it's ability to contain recoil. The ability to get back on target quickly will make a big difference. Miss your second or third shot with a .40 or hit your target with more rounds in the same amount of time with a .380. Also the shooters ability (skills) to get back on target quickly when they can control the firearm vs it jumping all over the place. I have shot .45 with less recoil than some of my 9mm. But it's not a gun that I can carry.
If a 380 is all you can carry than by all means carry it. As for shot placement a 380 can very easily be put spot on to be leathel but if the bullet hits bone ie the sternum ect it may not carry in the direction it had been. This is just the law of physics a larger bullet will hit bone and continue on its trajectory. A bb gun could be leathel if you hit in the right spot but is that what you want to gamble on? shooting at the range is a lot different than in a life or death situation I'd rather have a round that if I'm not spot on will still inflect enough damage to hopefully take the perp out of the game.
I have included a link that I think every one should read its not scientific but the observation of coroners who have dug bullets out of many dead bodies they have seen what works and what has not. There is no magic bullet but bigger is better IMHO.
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm
It was good enough for James Bond.
James Bond’s PPK is a 32 caliber.
Even more so.
And in the novels, James Bond started with a .25 ACP. I wouldn’t exactly look to 007 as a mentor for wisdom in caliber selection.
LG Chris especially since he is fictional.
LG Chris You go stand in the corner and think about what you just said.
And it can’t be “somewhere between” 22LR and 9mm because the .380 ACP cartridge is a 9mm round.
I’m pretty sure most people will assume that 9mm=9×19, which is what I meant to imply. But thanks for pointing that out.
LG Chris Stop being a bully ….
If I had a choice hell no, but if not I'd rather get hit by a 380 than a 45 or 44 magnum any day
It works for me, I would recommend it.
The biggest problem with .380s is that most of them are straight blowback, which tends to give them more recoil than a gun of similar size and weight with a locked breech. So you can have a 9mm that handles about the same as a .380, but packs enough power to push it into what I consider a more acceptable defensive cartridge.
Very good point, though I would emphasize the “most” part of your observation. The Sig P238, for example, tends to be pretty easy to handle for its size (though I think it has other drawbacks that make it a less than ideal option). That said, one should not assume anything about what the felt recoil of a .380 will be until they get a chance to shoot it… the recoil mechanism does make a big difference.
I have a .380 in my mix and it’ll do the job. Especially with someone who can place their rounds where they aim. I can do that so caliber is not a problem with me.
.380= 9.65mm, bigger than a 9mm but less powder. There is your question, know your sizes before commenting.
.380 ACP uses .355″ bullets, same as 9mm Parabellum/Luger/x19 NATO.
The name doesn’t reflect reality. It’s a vestige of the days when guns were switching from heel based bullets to inside lubricated.
Originally a “.38” caliber cartridge used a bullet that had the same diameter as the cartridge case and a smaller diameter “heel” that fit inside it. That made it easy to build cartridge conversion for cap and ball guns – the charge holes in the cylinder could be bored straight through.
Unfortunately, the lube used on those lead bullets was messy and came off, so they began making bullets that were the diameter of the *inside* of the case with the lube grooves protected by the case mouth. For a while they used hollow based bullets that were supposed to expand in the bore to make a good seal, but that didn’t work very well. The switch was made to using a barrel that had a bore that matched the smaller bullets. The cartridges that were originally .38s became in reality 0.355-0.357s. The nomenclature carried on even into cartridges that were named well after the black powder ere – including the .380 ACP, .38 ACP (and .38 Super), .44 Special and Magnum (which are really 0.429″), etc.
Now you know.
Mark Loly
The .357 Magnum is significantly more powerful than .38 Special. Roughly 3X.
That power comes at the price of increased recoil, noise, and flash. That can make it significantly harder to shoot, especially in the sort of small and lightweight guns people choose for concealed carry.
Mark Loly
For defensive shooting a quality jacketed hollow point is almost universally preferred over full metal jacket. An expanding bullet maximizes the wound channel and reduces over penetration. That means a faster stop of the threat and reduced danger to bystanders.
The only time I’d choose a full metal jacketed bullet for defensive shooting would be if I were carrying a gun in a caliber that I didn’t think would achieve adequate penetration to reach an attacker’s vital with an expanding bullet, such as .22 long rifle, .25 ACP, or .32 ACP.
Mark Loly
No problem. If you have more questions, come sign up at WeTheArmed.com – I’m one of the moderators over there and we have lots of knowledgeable folks who are happy to answer questions.
Yes, with laser to aid shot placement.
The key comment was something like "a .380 on you is better than a larger caliber left at home." I wholeheartedly agree. I sometime carry a .40 concealed when dressed properly and it's comfortable I ALWAYS throw my little Ruger LCP with a LaserMax in my back pocket in a pocket holster. I'd rather have 7 somewhat underpowered rounds in there than lint to throw at a bad guy.
Perfect for summer carry.
My Sig has almost no recoil and is very accurate!!
I have the Walter PK-380 , very accurate, and if you use Buffalo load very effective.
I think the fact that the .380 is available at a pretty low cost in a descent gun while still being small and light make’s the chance of a person actually having it when they need it a neat little caliber. I don’t carry one just because I feel a little under gunned working in a rare coin shop but that’s just me. Hey, the best gun I could ever have is the one I have when I need it! I do carry a little North American Arms .22 WMR in my pocket also and often forget it is in there. I always say any gun is better than a rock and faster than a prayer! That’s just me though, not science. My .45 is usually left at home because of it’s weight, I wear a 9mm because even high capacity it is light, P99 and pretty accurate. Not the most powerful but probably the one I will have do I like it and practice with it.
Love mine
Hollie Brogan what you doing in here lol, your gun is not really what is considered a low cost gun 😉
i have the same one, billfold holster. that girl will spit some fire at night.
Shot placement is more important than caliber. Much smaller calibers have plenty of fatalities under their belts.
Lethality is *almost* completely irrelevant to self defense. What matters is *stopping the attack*.
Botulism has killed plenty of people, but I’m not going to save myself by trying to feed an attacker a bulged can of tomatoes.
a face full of 380 rounds will suffice
Focus on a pattern, from low to high, with emphasis on vital parts of the anatomy. Above all else, as one is able, the target should be the central nervous system.
Learn to shoot to kill one round head shot with 380 that all it takes i carry 5 rounds i need just one to do the job
To me they are one in the same – as a goal. If an attacker forces my hand to that extent, he’s going down.
I don’t care if an attacker lives or dies, but I want them stopped NOW.
It doesn’t do me any good to shoot an attacker with a .22 and then have him die in the hospital from peritonitis a week after he finished clubbing me to death with a wrench.
That’s why I don’t care that more people have been killed by .22s than any other round. It’s just not relevant to what I need to accomplish.
The relevance of self-defense has to do with “Terminating The Threat.” It is not a matter of killing someone. No responsible, well-focused person truly wants to kill another human being.
This is especially important when it comes to the police investigation, and the city/county attorney’s involvement. It is about terminating the threat. If one round from a CCW citizen’s weapon terminates the threat, any further discharge of the weapon takes one out of the “self-defense” mode – and into the possible assault with a deadly weapon and/or murder.
Let’s keep our heads, and keep focus on what self-defense really is – by logic, by the “reasonable person” clause in law, and by the laws of your State.
Jesse Lambert i tend to default to the whole “energy” of the round argument. IMO, .380 is very under-powered compared to 9mm, which many people tend to mock as a SD round anyway…. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
Head shot will kill a man no matter how big he is caliper does not matter i see people killed with 22 magnum head shot
I have no problem with my .380 with kick or getting back on target for double tap. The only issue with the .380 and self defense loads they don’t have enough power for a self defense load with the expansion of the bullet, BUT if you use regular ball or round loads it is more than adequate.
I think with hollow points it’ll do the job, I carry one, yes, because it’s small. My preferred gun is my 45 sig but at 115 lbs I’m hard pressed to conceal it. I feel plenty safe:)
I think that with more marginal cartridges like .380, .32 acp, & .25 acp it’s better to go with FMJ. Hollow points may sacrifice too much penetration.
2 in the chest and 1 in the head and the bad guy will never know the difference between the 380 and a 45…
I am confident with my .380 and it depends on the user to zero in with the target… If you are used to it, It’s a good handgun. I call mine mini .45…
As long as I can shoot it accurately, it will do what I need it to do.
It's not the caliber that is as important as roind placement. I've seen first hand a person killed by one shot from a .22 round and another person struck 5 times with a .357 magnum, but survived. Round placement is the most important part of self defense, so each person must chose which firearm and what caliber they can accurately place the rounds in a stressful aituation.
if you can’t aim, get a shotgun or a pistol that can take shotgun rounds. if you practice and know how to handle a pistol, a .380 round well placed will stop anyone. A poorly placed .45 or even 50 cal round will only wound and piss off your attacker. Even a .22 will make most attackers run away if you hit them center mass, or kill them if you aim and are close enough. You don’t need to blow off an arm or leg with a poorly placed round when you can make one small hole and stop their heart.
I would have said no yeas ago, but with modern ammunition like Speer Gold Dot, COrbon DPX, and Hornady Critical defense, I would say yes, the 380 is a worthy caliber for self defense. Besides, any bullet to the head will end a fight quickly. The first round is usually to the chest area to stun the attacker, the second shot is crucial to your own survival. It can either be another chest shot or take the head shot while the attacker is stunned.
if the attacker is wearing bulletproof armor, take that suckers legs out from under him. three rounds to each leg will make him wish for a head shot
i’ve seen people shot in the face, who were talking afterwards, and are still alive to this day… HP rounds can do goofy stuff. it’s more important to shoot a good caliber, than to count on “what it’s supposed to do.”
Patrick Bush I have also heard of attackers getting shot more than 15 times with a 9mm and was still a violent threat. The 380 i a decent cartridge for concealed carry. It amounts to about the same power as a 38 special +P. Not quite, but almost. Personally I would prefer a 45 acp or 357 magnum.
James R Hood yeah, that’ s happened with pretty much every pistol caliber. however, if I recall correctly, complete failures in stopping the threat are pretty low with .40, 45 and 9mm (and especially .357), whereas the smaller calibers have a much higher tendency to not the stop the BG, at all. I will admit shot placement matters, but different calibers simply are unable to do things that slightly larger calibers are able to do. I tend to default to the actual energy of the round, and .380 simply is not comparable to 9mm….. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
another link: http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
Patrick Bush You are correct. The 40 S&W and 45 acp are much better threat stoppers, but they are often bulky and heavy, and hard to conceal if they are of any size. The 380 and 9mm are good for concealed carry and yes you do run the risk of not having an entiely efficient man stopper in 380 and sometimes 9mm. Shot placement is not always available either. If an attack happens suddenly you may only get a shot where you can most of the time hitting the attacker in the arm, leg or stomach. Still, f the attacker has any brains at all, he will try to seek medical attention at some point. A 380 is small, but a 380 hollow point that properly expanded in the gut or even the leg can still be fatal if not treated. 9 times out of 10 when shooting begins, the attacker will flee, but that other time when the attacker if messed up in the head, a 380 may not do much to help you unless you get lucky and nail him through the heart or get a head shot. Let’s put it this way, how woudl you feel about being shot with a 380 carryng speer gol dot hollow points? Chances are if hit in the chest cavity 6 times, you will die very soon from loss of blood. Human lungs cannot tolerate this much trauma for long.
James R Hood, I wanna say this out front- I think you and I agree for the most part, and are debating minor things. But I personally don’t see much advantage of .380 over 9mm. Magazine capacity is the same, but the energy of the .380 is about half of that of 9mm. And, 9mm is not really hard to shoot, by any stretch of the imagination….. If I’m carrying a gun for self-defense, then I want something that will improve my chances of survival as much as possible. Mag capacity, ease of shooting and penetration/energy are the 3 primary things I’m looking at in a bullet. .380 doesn’t beat 9mm in any of these, really. And .380 is a trade off with .40 and .45…..
Patrick Bush I understand. The 9mm is more powerful by about 100 foot lbs of energy. Many firearms in 9mm are almost as small as their 380 counterparts, so 9mm does make better sense. There is no advantage at all of the 380 over the 9mm. no advantage whatsover. For the most part it is personal preference. The 380 is generally what I consider what someone would start out with. a beginner gun to be used as practice and if need be self defense, but you and I agree, it would not be my primary choice, but would be ok for potential backup.
If it’s 380ACP vs 9x19mm at ranges less than 20′, I prefer 1851 Navy in .44 or home-made 10 GA percussion pistol, but would take the 380 over 9mm any day. 9mm was made for longer ranges and can go through 2 people easily at short ranges. 380 is about getting the job done efficiently at close ranges.. Over-penetration is not only unsafe for bystanders, it’s not any more effective at stopping an attacker unless the attacker’s behind cover or wearing body armor, which isn’t usually the case on the sidewalk or from across the room if someone just busted through your door or window.
James R Hood, I agree 100% about it’s usefulness as a backup gun. Or, like you said, personal preference… some folks don’t have very large hands.
considering how many people hate 9mm, i'm surprised how many people think .380 (or 9mm short) is worth risking their life. 9mm is pretty darn easy to shoot, even in subcompact models…
i've seen people shot in the face, who were talking afterwards, and are still alive to this day… HP rounds can do goofy stuff. it's more important to shoot a good caliber, than to count on "what it's supposed to do."
if you it .380 is perfect.goog article
I have a Bersa Thunder .380 that I used to carry concealed. I am as accurate with it at the range, one or two handed as I am with my S&W 9mm Shield which I carry now. As many have already said, shot placement counts for so much more than caliber. Two center mass and one to the head with anything is better than one in the arm, and two over the top of the target in large caliber. Carry what is comfortable, what you can carry safely, and practice with it often.
I have been trying to explain that to the “I carry the biggest gun I can buy” crowd for years. I call it caliber envy.
i carry a Bersa 380 Thunder CC and love it. small enough to conceal if i want, big enough to open carry if i want.
Only if it wasn’t loaded with the ammo I make in my basement lol
AMT Backup……solid well made gun with good ammo it gives you a nice shot. Have carried mine for years.
I was reviewing a chart showing first shot "stops" and surprisingly the .380 was right up at the top.
You have to take into consideration the size of the carry gun and it’s ability to contain recoil. The ability to get back on target quickly will make a big difference. Miss your second or third shot with a .40 or hit your target with more rounds in the same amount of time with a .380. Also the shooters ability (skills) to get back on target quickly when they can control the firearm vs it jumping all over the place. I have shot .45 with less recoil than some of my 9mm. But it’s not a gun that I can carry.
If a 380 is all you can carry than by all means carry it. As for shot placement a 380 can very easily be put spot on to be leathel but if the bullet hits bone ie the sternum ect it may not carry in the direction it had been. This is just the law of physics a larger bullet will hit bone and continue on its trajectory. A bb gun could be leathel if you hit in the right spot but is that what you want to gamble on? shooting at the range is a lot different than in a life or death situation I’d rather have a round that if I’m not spot on will still inflect enough damage to hopefully take the perp out of the game.
I have included a link that I think every one should read its not scientific but the observation of coroners who have dug bullets out of many dead bodies they have seen what works and what has not. There is no magic bullet but bigger is better IMHO.
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm
Actually faster is better, not bigger.
17HMR vs 22lr to prove it.
It depends. In calibers under .700 that’s usually true. In civilian applications, I feel that rounds like .22, .25, .32, 9x18mm and .380 seem most desirable because of relative safety and great stopping power in urban environments. Rapid shooting capability is also important with any round that leaves a cavity less than 3″ diameter. You never want a round that penetrates over 12″ deep though. 6-10″ deep at ranges within 15′ is ideal for urban environments. If you can’t create a large wound with one shot, you need the ability to create a large wound with at least 7 shots within 2.5 seconds. Rounds like 3mm, .17, .22 Short, and older .25 Autos/.32ACPs might not be adequate. Rounds like 9x19mm, 10mm, .357, .7.6x, .38, .40, .44, .45, .460, .50, .500 .600, .700 and any slug-shooting shotgun that has a bore smaller than .700/12GA over-penetrate and don’t leave much of a temporary cavity behind to justify that much power. 5.7mm tends to have a lot of kick, still penetrates as deep as a .22Mag, doesn’t leave a cavity much larger than a .22 and has no significant advantage over a .22. It kicks too hard for what it does and wastes more energy than most rounds I’ve seen. The only advantages I can think of for a 5.7 over a .22 is the variety of ammo types like incendiary, tracer or AP. Plus, no matter how old the powder gets, the power will usually remain consistent at short/medium ranges because it’s an overpowered round. The effective range on the 5.7mm is better than the .22 which makes it a versatile round for people who might encounter threats in both urban and rural environments. 5.7 is pretty much for survivalists and soldiers. .22 is mostly for target practice, stealth and self defense in urban places. .22s will decrease in power after sitting on a shelf for a couple years though. .223 leaves a decent temp cavity at medium ranges and shotguns can make up for the lack of temp cavity and poor expansion with 3″+ diameter wounds with multiple projectiles/shot pattern. .223s can leave temp cavities over 3″ at medium range and .308s can leave 3″ temp cavities starting at long ranges, which makes a .223 good to have on a farm and a .300 or .308 is good to have in mountains or as a sniper rifle. I consider any bore over .96″ diameter to be good for shot placement in any situation your hands or legs might be shaking and you need to take a shot from up to 15′ away. For every 5′ after that, you should probably raise the bore diameter by .11″ or any round that can create an equivalently large temporary cavity to compensate for poor aim caused by stress. All that said, at ranges under 50′ it would be almost impossible not to stop a threat with just one 6″+ diameter projectile at 600+ FPS no matter how bad your aim is. a 12″ projectile will have you blowing faces off and ripping people apart at just about any range. That said, anything over 3.5″ diameter wouldn’t make for a good carry gun. People under 350lbs would probably go flying after shooting such a weapon from an unrested/unbraced standing position just from recoil alone lol
we are talking self defense so something as big as .700 probably isn’t overly relevant to the exchange
It depends. Self defense in the home can be easily managed with a 12 GA shotgun which is slightly above .70 bore diameter. Serbu Super Shorty can be carried concealed under a coat in colder weather. Otherwise, sure, .380 might do if you don’t have a better option. Certainly a Mac11 would do the job pretty well lol. Otherwise it’s hard to go wrong with a Glock in any caliber, Hi-Point or single stack 1911 in .40 or .45. Cobra also makes a tiny 6 shot .45 that’s almost the size of a .380 Ruger LCP. If you have a single action semi-auto handgun with a capacity of 12 or over you’d do fine with any caliber over .25. 24 round capacity or over if you like .25 or under. If you don’t expect to face more than 1 foe or you have exceptionally accurate and quick aim, just about any handgun with at least 5 shot capacity might do. Personally, I have some pepper spray, a 3/4″ bore black powder shotgun and an 1851 Navy in .44 with a knife well attached to the side of the barrel so the blade is beside and in front of the muzzle like a bayonet. I have all chambers loaded to the max and the knife sheathed but well sharpened. It works well enough for me but I’m also shopping around for body armor at least level 3 just in case.
ruger lcp with hornady critical defense rounds great combo for a pocket gun
The key comment was something like “a .380 on you is better than a larger caliber left at home.” I wholeheartedly agree. I sometime carry a .40 concealed when dressed properly and it’s comfortable I ALWAYS throw my little Ruger LCP with a LaserMax in my back pocket in a pocket holster. I’d rather have 7 somewhat underpowered rounds in there than lint to throw at a bad guy.
I also carry a 380 smith an Wesson w/ laser,,,very small an lite,,,,,however at the movies one nite I had it out to adjust it in my pocket, laser was on and all over the big screen,, lot of people got nervous..!!
It’s not the caliber that is as important as roind placement. I’ve seen first hand a person killed by one shot from a .22 round and another person struck 5 times with a .357 magnum, but survived. Round placement is the most important part of self defense, so each person must chose which firearm and what caliber they can accurately place the rounds in a stressful aituation.
considering how many people hate 9mm, i’m surprised how many people think .380 (or 9mm short) is worth risking their life. 9mm is pretty darn easy to shoot, even in subcompact models…
Be a REAL man, 454 Casull or nothing at all
Aww, come on man, where’s the love for your brothers and sisters among the 357 tribe?? 🙂
I actually like my mouse gun now! I used to carry one of my 1911s, usually my Springfield. I have a Kimber but I have done extensive trigger and sear work on it and it breaks crisp at 3lbs which is far too light to carry in my opinion.
I have a Sig P238HD with Hornady Critical Defense that is my preferred ‘companion’. It fits easily in a side pouch that looks like a large cell phone case, my Wife calls it a “fanny pack”.
I carry the same sig
Don’t forget to add the hardcast! 🙂
Because shooting twice is just silly!!
^5
357 Sig, stopping power, magazine capacity, controllability, and enhanced feed reliability, nuff said!
To Loud,,to expensive,to much of a
10mm– Just miserable cc choice
For more than 50%
Well, opinions vary, but it works for me.
Point Made & Few mention it Bcuz they
Assume their shot will be perfect.
a lot of folks will ask why you choose to risk your life to the 9mm
I was reviewing a chart showing first shot “stops” and surprisingly the .380 was right up at the top.
Caliber not nearly as important as shot placement. I ususally carry something larger but do not hesitate to carry a sig 238 when the mood strikes.
ruger lcp with hornady critical defense rounds great combo for a pocket gun
A gun fighting expert (trains cops how to shoot) told me the vast majority of gun fights happen when opponents are 8 to 12 feet from each other…
The 380acp is a "baby 9mm" – it is the same diameter bullet, just a little shorter and with a smaller cartridge to hold slightly less powder. With today's new powders and bullets, the 380acp has become a respectable self defense round.
They shouldn't be eating so close to each other! Sorry Roy, I just couldn't help myself. 3:)
How long is your livingroom. A .380 will do well for self defense within that rande. That's the distance to practice with small self defense weapons. We are protecting ourselves…not looking for a gunfight.
Pupito Az THE "R" IS NEXT TO THE "T!" How you doing, Hombre?
Lethality is *almost* completely irrelevant to self defense. What matters is *stopping the attack*.
Botulism has killed plenty of people, but I'm not going to save myself by trying to feed an attacker a bulged can of tomatoes.
I THINK IF YOU GOING TO CARRY A C.W. CARRY A WEAPON THATS SMALL AS A 380 BUT WITH MORE STOPING POWER LIKEA SPRINGFIELD XDS45, I OWN ONE AND LOVE IT.
OR A KAHR PM40 I OWN ONE OF THOSE ALSO 40CAL.
To me they are one in the same – as a goal. If an attacker forces my hand to that extent, he's going down.
I don't care if an attacker lives or dies, but I want them stopped NOW.
It doesn't do me any good to shoot an attacker with a .22 and then have him die in the hospital from peritonitis a week after he finished clubbing me to death with a wrench.
That's why I don't care that more people have been killed by .22s than any other round. It's just not relevant to what I need to accomplish.
Caliber not nearly as important as shot placement. I ususally carry something larger but do not hesitate to carry a sig 238 when the mood strikes.
First off, I don't think anyone will debate that shot placement is the single most important factor in successful personal defense. If you can't hit what you are shooting at, caliber is of little consequence. Having said that, .380 just doesn't make me feel like it's enough. My 'pocket' carry is a .38 Smith and Wesson air weight, with .38+P's in it. When I travel, my carry is a Glock 21. I may consider a single stack 9mm for carry, but I'm comfortable with my choices.
A gun fighting expert (trains cops how to shoot) told me the vast majority of gun fights happen when opponents are 8 to 12 feet from each other…
They shouldn’t be eating so close to each other! Sorry Roy, I just couldn’t help myself. 3:)
Pupito Az THE “R” IS NEXT TO THE “T!” How you doing, Hombre?
The 380acp is a “baby 9mm” – it is the same diameter bullet, just a little shorter and with a smaller cartridge to hold slightly less powder. With today’s new powders and bullets, the 380acp has become a respectable self defense round.
How long is your livingroom. A .380 will do well for self defense within that rande. That’s the distance to practice with small self defense weapons. We are protecting ourselves…not looking for a gunfight.
True,,,it’s Not an Offensive weapon.
It’s a close up & personal defensive
Round with Limits. Farther away U
are/heavy dressed targets/ Limits
Come into play & its Not a game I’d
Want in On.
I THINK IF YOU GOING TO CARRY A C.W. CARRY A WEAPON THATS SMALL AS A 380 BUT WITH MORE STOPING POWER LIKEA SPRINGFIELD XDS45, I OWN ONE AND LOVE IT.
OR A KAHR PM40 I OWN ONE OF THOSE ALSO 40CAL.
First off, I don’t think anyone will debate that shot placement is the single most important factor in successful personal defense. If you can’t hit what you are shooting at, caliber is of little consequence. Having said that, .380 just doesn’t make me feel like it’s enough. My ‘pocket’ carry is a .38 Smith and Wesson air weight, with .38+P’s in it. When I travel, my carry is a Glock 21. I may consider a single stack 9mm for carry, but I’m comfortable with my choices.
Patrick Bush I have also heard of attackers getting shot more than 15 times with a 9mm and was still a violent threat. The 380 i a decent cartridge for concealed carry. It amounts to about the same power as a 38 special +P. Not quite, but almost. Personally I would prefer a 45 acp or 357 magnum.
James R Hood yeah, that' s happened with pretty much every pistol caliber. however, if I recall correctly, complete failures in stopping the threat are pretty low with .40, 45 and 9mm (and especially .357), whereas the smaller calibers have a much higher tendency to not the stop the BG, at all. I will admit shot placement matters, but different calibers simply are unable to do things that slightly larger calibers are able to do. I tend to default to the actual energy of the round, and .380 simply is not comparable to 9mm….. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
Jesse Lambert i tend to default to the whole "energy" of the round argument. IMO, .380 is very under-powered compared to 9mm, which many people tend to mock as a SD round anyway…. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
another link: http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
Patrick Bush You are correct. The 40 S&W and 45 acp are much better threat stoppers, but they are often bulky and heavy, and hard to conceal if they are of any size. The 380 and 9mm are good for concealed carry and yes you do run the risk of not having an entiely efficient man stopper in 380 and sometimes 9mm. Shot placement is not always available either. If an attack happens suddenly you may only get a shot where you can most of the time hitting the attacker in the arm, leg or stomach. Still, f the attacker has any brains at all, he will try to seek medical attention at some point. A 380 is small, but a 380 hollow point that properly expanded in the gut or even the leg can still be fatal if not treated. 9 times out of 10 when shooting begins, the attacker will flee, but that other time when the attacker if messed up in the head, a 380 may not do much to help you unless you get lucky and nail him through the heart or get a head shot. Let's put it this way, how woudl you feel about being shot with a 380 carryng speer gol dot hollow points? Chances are if hit in the chest cavity 6 times, you will die very soon from loss of blood. Human lungs cannot tolerate this much trauma for long.
James R Hood, I wanna say this out front- I think you and I agree for the most part, and are debating minor things. But I personally don't see much advantage of .380 over 9mm. Magazine capacity is the same, but the energy of the .380 is about half of that of 9mm. And, 9mm is not really hard to shoot, by any stretch of the imagination….. If I'm carrying a gun for self-defense, then I want something that will improve my chances of survival as much as possible. Mag capacity, ease of shooting and penetration/energy are the 3 primary things I'm looking at in a bullet. .380 doesn't beat 9mm in any of these, really. And .380 is a trade off with .40 and .45…..
I also carry a 380 smith an Wesson w/ laser,,,very small an lite,,,,,however at the movies one nite I had it out to adjust it in my pocket, laser was on and all over the big screen,, lot of people got nervous..!!
Patrick Bush I understand. The 9mm is more powerful by about 100 foot lbs of energy. Many firearms in 9mm are almost as small as their 380 counterparts, so 9mm does make better sense. There is no advantage at all of the 380 over the 9mm. no advantage whatsover. For the most part it is personal preference. The 380 is generally what I consider what someone would start out with. a beginner gun to be used as practice and if need be self defense, but you and I agree, it would not be my primary choice, but would be ok for potential backup.
James R Hood, I agree 100% about it's usefulness as a backup gun. Or, like you said, personal preference… some folks don't have very large hands.
I carry a LCP when I just want to go to the store or somewhere quick. At 3-10 yards it is very accurate for me. I suggest as with any CC firearm to PRACTICE! I believe shot placement is the biggest factor in a self defense situation. Most attackers will not want to continue once shot with ANY gun. Being attacked is unlikely.. being attacked by a crazed drugged up nut who takes multiple shots to take down is even more unlikely. So to sum up.. yes, .380 can be effective and I do feel comfortable when I carry it.
I carry a LCP when I just want to go to the store or somewhere quick. At 3-10 yards it is very accurate for me. I suggest as with any CC firearm to PRACTICE! I believe shot placement is the biggest factor in a self defense situation. Most attackers will not want to continue once shot with ANY gun. Being attacked is unlikely.. being attacked by a crazed drugged up nut who takes multiple shots to take down is even more unlikely. So to sum up.. yes, .380 can be effective and I do feel comfortable when I carry it.
Jon – you are absolutely correct. Practice, Practice, and More Practice! Muscle Memory, and taking the thought out of engagement in favor of instinct.
I love my 380..matter of fact I have 3..my sig shoots straight and true…
I love my 380..matter of fact I have 3..my sig shoots straight and true…
I love my .380, I went from carrying a SR40 to the LCP. I have the confidence in what I'm doing to make the switch. I could go on about why I did but it's not important.
I love my .380, I went from carrying a SR40 to the LCP. I have the confidence in what I’m doing to make the switch. I could go on about why I did but it’s not important.
Shot placement is King, and always will be.
I believe the .380 is an adequate caliber when using either Speer Gold Dot, Hornaday Critical Defense, or Federal Hydra Shok with maximum grain load. However, placement is king!
Shot placement is King, and always will be.
I believe the .380 is an adequate caliber when using either Speer Gold Dot, Hornaday Critical Defense, or Federal Hydra Shok with maximum grain load. However, placement is king!
I study under two instructors as I continue development as a CCW shooter. One is a 32 year DOJ officer who has been an instructor for 20+ years. The other is a police chief in a community near my place of residence. He has been an instructor for >5 years.
Both instructors are superb in what they do. When the matter of caliber comes up, and the “guy-guys” insisting one needs a .45 or .44 – or don’t bother. The instructors – both professional law enforcement officers – are of one mind and voice. SHOT PLACEMENT! HIT A VITAL SPOT! EMPHASIS ON THE CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM!
The sooner the knuckle-draggers study anatomy – and accept legitimate statistics – the better off we all will be.
Concerning the .25ACP for defense – I get so tired of people who regurgitate the tired, old "it'll just piss the bad guy off" line. Consider this: a .25ACP FMJ bullet will penetrate 13 inches into the human body. That's like stabbing a man up to the handle with the longest screwdriver in your tool box. Anyone who says that's an inconsequential wound doesn't know what he's talking about.
Excellent video – THANK YOU!
I believe there are a few more important elements that could be added to this conversation. Of course as was eluded to, the most important rule of a gunfight is to have a gun! Secondly, in warmer weather, shorts and t-shirts, with my S&W Bodyguard and my wallet type holster, it is light, easy to conceal and very accessible. In the colder months, especially in the North East where I live, most of year it is very easy to conceal my Glock 19, or 7-shot .357 mag. But if I go out to place where I do not have much cover, I will stuff my .380 in my pocket.
Another valid argument for the .380's moderate penetration is, most people I know carry it during the summer when heavy clothing is not worn. I wouldn't really want to use .380 HP's if someone is wearing a winter coat. In those situations, I believe one would be better served with solids or something like Buffalo Bores 100 grain FP solids which would give excellent penetration through almost anything.
Lastly, if you read much on CCW's encounters, 90% of the confrontations end with the mere pulling of the weapon. Let's face it, the body is not meant to punctured and people just don't like to get shot. Sure if you happen to run into that legendary 300 lb meth addict, which is an oxymoron as meth addicts that eventually become desperate are usually emaciated and not beefy, you will have quite the challenge to stop him with a 380, 9mm or anything short of a .357 or .45 acp.
Secondly, if you do become part of that 10% that must fire, statics show that almost half encounters are what is called a "psychological stop." In other words, when many people get shot even in the foot, they just stop because it suddenly dawns of them, "Oh crap, I've just been shot!" and the battle often ends.
I do not remember what book I read it in and would appreciate someone informing me, but there was man that worked in an auto shop in a gang type of city in the southern part of the country. He effectively won two gun fights against a .357, a .45 acp and a 12 gauge and another serious caliber which at the moment I do not recall with a cheap, "wimpy" Davis .380. Both times his opponents came in gun blazing. He saw it coming, remained calm and carefully aimed both times. The second battle he killed the two men with the .45 and 12ga. .
I have a .380 but rarely carry it. One thing more important than anything is, whatever one carries is to know their gun. Shoot it as often as time and economics allow. I have read over 10 books on defensive encounters and marvel at how often and how effective the .22lr has been in defending and saving the life of the innocents.
Is the .380 effective? Well, the answer to that question depends more on you than the gun itself.
Excellent video – THANK YOU!
I believe there are a few more important elements that could be added to this conversation. Of course as was eluded to, the most important rule of a gunfight is to have a gun! Secondly, in warmer weather, shorts and t-shirts, with my S&W Bodyguard and my wallet type holster, it is light, easy to conceal and very accessible. In the colder months, especially in the North East where I live, most of year it is very easy to conceal my Glock 19, or 7-shot .357 mag. But if I go out to place where I do not have much cover, I will stuff my .380 in my pocket.
Another valid argument for the .380’s moderate penetration is, most people I know carry it during the summer when heavy clothing is not worn. I wouldn’t really want to use .380 HP’s if someone is wearing a winter coat. In those situations, I believe one would be better served with solids or something like Buffalo Bores 100 grain FP solids which would give excellent penetration through almost anything.
Lastly, if you read much on CCW’s encounters, 90% of the confrontations end with the mere pulling of the weapon. Let’s face it, the body is not meant to punctured and people just don’t like to get shot. Sure if you happen to run into that legendary 300 lb meth addict, which is an oxymoron as meth addicts that eventually become desperate are usually emaciated and not beefy, you will have quite the challenge to stop him with a 380, 9mm or anything short of a .357 or .45 acp.
Secondly, if you do become part of that 10% that must fire, statics show that almost half encounters are what is called a “psychological stop.” In other words, when many people get shot even in the foot, they just stop because it suddenly dawns of them, “Oh crap, I’ve just been shot!” and the battle often ends.
I do not remember what book I read it in and would appreciate someone informing me, but there was man that worked in an auto shop in a gang type of city in the southern part of the country. He effectively won two gun fights against a .357, a .45 acp and a 12 gauge and another serious caliber which at the moment I do not recall with a cheap, “wimpy” Davis .380. Both times his opponents came in gun blazing. He saw it coming, remained calm and carefully aimed both times. The second battle he killed the two men with the .45 and 12ga. .
I have a .380 but rarely carry it. One thing more important than anything is, whatever one carries is to know their gun. Shoot it as often as time and economics allow. I have read over 10 books on defensive encounters and marvel at how often and how effective the .22lr has been in defending and saving the life of the innocents.
Is the .380 effective? Well, the answer to that question depends more on you than the gun itself.
I agree 100% with EVERYTHING you just said except Underwood plus FN 100 grain..(same bullet but save $$$) Excellent answer!
The 9mm round is cheaper and more powerful, PERIOD. You literally get more bang for your buck. When you ask plp to describe the gun they in-vision themselves getting robbed or assaulted with.. most say it is big scary looking gun. Why in the world would you bring a pea-shooter to a GUN fight. And most plp who own pocket pistols never shot them because of the recoil and aren't very accurate or efficient at the range. Now when are in fight or flight mode the seconds count and if you fumble this pea-shooter, u will get yourself or an innocent by-stander killed.
Mark Hatchett An ND waiting to happen.
For a gunfight at the OK Corral, a 380 pistol is a poor choice.
As a pocket pistol that is easily hidden (I can hide a Ruger 380 with my hand) and will be shoved in someone's face when it's used, it's probably good.
For a gunfight at the OK Corral, a 380 pistol is a poor choice.
As a pocket pistol that is easily hidden (I can hide a Ruger 380 with my hand) and will be shoved in someone’s face when it’s used, it’s probably good.
Shot placement is the most important factor. The small .380 ACP in your waistband is orders of magnitude more powerful than a .45 ACP in the safe at home.
Shot placement is the most important factor. The small .380 ACP in your waistband is orders of magnitude more powerful than a .45 ACP in the safe at home.
Here was a shocker for me. I just checked in that the Ruger LC9 is the same weight as my SR22. At 17 ounces, just how rough is the LC to shoot as compared to a LC380?
Here was a shocker for me. I just checked in that the Ruger LC9 is the same weight as my SR22. At 17 ounces, just how rough is the LC to shoot as compared to a LC380?
The LC9 kicks….a lot. It’s controllable but I didn’t find it enjoyable to shoot.
Jesse Lambert So…I am not alone !
Jesse Lambert Alright, I frequently agonize between the 38 special..and the 357 magnum, but is the magnum really that much more powerful? I would be interested to hear your opinion.
Mark Loly
The .357 Magnum is significantly more powerful than .38 Special. Roughly 3X.
That power comes at the price of increased recoil, noise, and flash. That can make it significantly harder to shoot, especially in the sort of small and lightweight guns people choose for concealed carry.
Jesse Lambert Thank you, you've made a decision for me.
One more question..sorry! have been told that using full metal jacket is better than jacketed hollow point…but is this right?
Mark Loly
For defensive shooting a quality jacketed hollow point is almost universally preferred over full metal jacket. An expanding bullet maximizes the wound channel and reduces over penetration. That means a faster stop of the threat and reduced danger to bystanders.
The only time I'd choose a full metal jacketed bullet for defensive shooting would be if I were carrying a gun in a caliber that I didn't think would achieve adequate penetration to reach an attacker's vital with an expanding bullet, such as .22 long rifle, .25 ACP, or .32 ACP.
Jesse Lambert Again sorry for my ignorance, and many thanks for the advice.
Mark Loly
No problem. If you have more questions, come sign up at WeTheArmed.com – I'm one of the moderators over there and we have lots of knowledgeable folks who are happy to answer questions.
I'd rather have a .380 in my hand than a .45 in my glove compartment……..
LG Chris Stop being a bully ….
I’d rather have a .380 in my hand than a .45 in my glove compartment……..
Learn to shoot to kill 9mm 45acp does not matter i carry 5 round 380 acp all i need is one to do the job
LG Chris You go stand in the corner and think about what you just said.
All this chit-chat, but I can guarantee not a single damn one of you would scoff at the muzzle of a .380 being trained on you. -the end-
All this chit-chat, but I can guarantee not a single damn one of you would scoff at the muzzle of a .380 being trained on you. -the end-
I have been trying to explain that to the "I carry the biggest gun I can buy" crowd for years. I call it caliber envy.
The LC9 kicks….a lot. It's controllable but I didn't find it enjoyable to shoot.
Three shots, 2 chest,1 head properly placed at 3 yards will do the job, whatever you have. What to carry dependes on your body size and what you are wearing at the time.1911 in a Bikini just won"t work out 380 LCP might. LOL
Three shots, 2 chest,1 head properly placed at 3 yards will do the job, whatever you have. What to carry dependes on your body size and what you are wearing at the time.1911 in a Bikini just won”t work out 380 LCP might. LOL
that camel toe better be pretty prominent.
Anyone, be they a crazed drugged up lunatic, a 9foot tall hump loving goon or an in your face gang-banger is going to run like shit the moment you start shooting. It's animal instinct to flee at the sound of gunfire, no one wants to get shot. Criminals are not trained, nor are they smart, in fact they are dumb. Yet there are the exceptions, those that have weapons such as pistols themselves. The best that you can do is empty your magazine into them, so shot placement is key here. When in jeopardy your heart rate goes up you might freeze, or get tunnel vision and once the adrenaline starts pumping, you are yourself in the grip of death coming at you.
380 can be an adequate round, if you're ready and know what you're up against, but even a 9mm or 45 won;t do you any good if you don't know the basics of self defensive shooting.
Anyone, be they a crazed drugged up lunatic, a 9foot tall hump loving goon or an in your face gang-banger is going to run like shit the moment you start shooting. It’s animal instinct to flee at the sound of gunfire, no one wants to get shot. Criminals are not trained, nor are they smart, in fact they are dumb. Yet there are the exceptions, those that have weapons such as pistols themselves. The best that you can do is empty your magazine into them, so shot placement is key here. When in jeopardy your heart rate goes up you might freeze, or get tunnel vision and once the adrenaline starts pumping, you are yourself in the grip of death coming at you.
380 can be an adequate round, if you’re ready and know what you’re up against, but even a 9mm or 45 won;t do you any good if you don’t know the basics of self defensive shooting.
Despite obviously not being the most powerful caliber, there are scenarios in which a .380 auto is a great choice for defense. Maybe you are a new shooter, or in general, someone who can’t handle much recoil. Maybe your budget forces you to select between a cheaply made 9mm Luger, or a nice .380.In any of those scenarios, I would much rather have a .380. You want something you can handle and that you can rely on; those should be major factors in your decision. Moreover, look at stopping power by caliber comparisons. They show that a .380 usually works, and although some calibers tend to work more often, no caliber can claim better than “usually works.” Two rounds on target from a .380 almost always works. Again, no other caliber can claim better. And those who theorize otherwise in denial of the stats should test their theory by standing in front of a .380. Those who theorize that a .380 wont work as well against a drugged up attacker, as if any other caliber can claim better, should drink a six-pack and stand in front of a .380.
The .380 debate will continue until we are the one pulling it out of our “hidie” place and pull the trigger possibly to take another life. As soon as we pull that gun we have huge legal liabilities. I don’t necessarily want to kill anyone but I do want to stop the attack. And as previously stated, a gun in the hand (of whatever caliber) beats the one elsewhere. So maybe our focus should be stopping the attack rather than killing someone.
John says it best. No body likes getting shot at. As soon as the gun shows up, and/or the shooting starts. The bad guys run. As they should.
Many years ago I read a story about a South American (I forget which country) Olympic shooter. He was forced to the side of the road by two men intent on kidnapping him for ransom. They apparently thought his family MUST have money.
He reached into his bag. And pulled out his .22LR target pistol. Then promptly killed both assailants with head shots. While shooting from cover behind his car.
It’s all about the shot placement. A .45 caliber shot to a fleshy area won’t do the same damage a .22 caliber shot to the brain will do.
That said. remember this. When the shooting starts. Human instinct is to RUN. And that’s what the bad guys do.
And more often than not. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is show them you have a gun. The smart ones always run. As they should.
Enveryone agrees that shot placement is the most important factor, an elefant killing round passing 3 feet away from the bad guy is good as any caliber. But, people say that like you can’t do a fist size grouping with a 45, and that is just not true. O have a G19, a snub 38 and a TCP. I just cannot carry my G19 everywhere, my TCP goes on my waistband when i’m running, on my ankle when I’m on a wedding …. And so on… Diferent sizes and wheigths gives you diferent carry options. I always have a gun within seconds of beeing fired, and to me that is the second most important factor after shot placement… 380 can drop a guy.
Enveryone agrees that shot placement is the most important factor, an elefant killing round passing 3 feet away from the bad guy is good as any caliber. But, people say that like you can’t do a fist size grouping with a 45, and that is just not true. O have a G19, a snub 38 and a TCP. I just cannot carry my G19 everywhere, my TCP goes on my waistband when i’m running, on my ankle when I’m on a wedding …. And so on… Diferent sizes and wheigths gives you diferent carry options. I always have a gun within seconds of beeing fired, and to me that is the second most important factor after shot placement… 380 can drop a guy.
Just stopped by for a read and find it interesting that this site is a lot more objective than most.
Just a caveat before I start. I’ve been shooting and hunting with handguns since I was 14 (that would be 1957, I’m 72 as I type). So, I’ve had a bit of experience with “live” targets. About a year ago I got intrigued by the .380 debate, so went out and bought a S&W Bodyguard to try on feral hogs. For those of you unfamiliar with a feral hog, they are a very tough animal. They have a thick layer of hair that is usuall caked in mud and other crud they’ve been wallowing in. Under that a thick, tough hide (think bacon rind because that’s pretty much what it is). The only ammo I could find at the time was Hornady Critical Defense, so that’s what I went with. I usually hunt them with a bow, so all my stands are set up for either a 20 or 30 yd shot. Pigs are built with their vitals directly behind the shoulder, so unless they are quartering away your best shot is through the front shoulder. This requires the round to shatter the shoulder and continue on (live bone is a whole different medium than dead bone). I started on a couple of 40 pound piglets because I wasn’t sure of the round. The little .380 perfromed perfectly, even when penetrating the shoulder bone. The largest hog I shot went 200 t0 250 lbs(I’m guessing, I had to gut him and cut his head off before I could get him in the jeep). I’ve since gone back to the bow, but the .380 handled the hogs with no problem and am pretty sure it would work just as well on man. I have a new respect for it to say the least. I still carrry my .40, but the .380 is in my pocket as a backup. Probably will never need either, but just in case.
Thanks for sharing. I have more confidence with .380 ACP after reading your story.
Thanks for sharing. I have read so much on the ‘mythical stopping power’ of handguns that it now annoys me. I too also shot a few hogs ranging from 100 – 175 lbs. A fmj when clean thru on a side shot on 2 separate hogs. A shoulder shot with fmj stopped just short of exiting on a shoulder shot. I placed a shot just behind the shoulder on about 150 lb hog with a fiocchi xtp hollow point and he dropped like a rock after running about 25 yards. It penetrated to the other should but stopped there without breaking that shoulder. I shot a 2nd smaller hog maybe 100/lbs with a Winchester hollow point. I missed my target area slightly but still managed to get a decent shoulder shot. It broke his shoulder but did not penetrate much further but the damage was very good. I had to finish him off but he was definitely badly hurt. Don’t my word for it though, go try it yourself. Don’t shoot gel and tell me how a bullet will impact an animal or person. I carry an LCP 380 during the summer or when I can’t conceal my XDS 45. My spouse and my mother both have an LCP also. I alternate fmj and hollow points. I am 100 % that I can defend myself well with either.
For my last thought on the mythical stopping power of handgun’s, there are NONE that can do it in every situation. Shot placement is what really matters. That’s it.
People just like talking about it like an old fairytale.
I believe you have the essence of the real story on “stopping power.” This myth about “bigger is better” and “I knew a guy who shot a bad guy with a .45, and it knocked him back 10 feet!” is utter nonsense.
If one is a trained, disciplined shooter (e.g., CCW self-defense citizen), one learns early on about the myth of stopping power. It is NOT about the caliber of the weapon. It is not about the size of the bullet striking the targeted person. It IS about where on/in the body the missile strikes.
If a missile (bullet) strikes a critical part of the body (especially the central nervous system), the body is likely to “stop.” THIS is the measure of stopping power!
True i see pepole get killed with 22 magnum head shot learn to shoot to kill with one shot
I’m just wondering The Distance He
Shot them,,I doubt seriously they were
More than 50 feet. 30 yds or 90 feet @
a 200 lb. Hog would be a Chore IMO.
I don’t want the bullet to pass thru the target possibly hitting an innocent , If needed let the doctor dig it out .
.380 was a military and police round used through all of Europe for decades, like the video says, we have better ammo now, while it is not “the” best round for defense, in my opinion it is good enough for any likely scenario an average citizen is likely to encounter, at least togged you out of it. Arguing on the contrary is like those who argue that 9mm is not enough and you should carry a .45, better yet, a .357, no, wait, a magnum 44, are we there yet? no wait, better carry your AR15 with two 30 rounds magazines… you got my point…
Hi! I watched the video and also read all the comments and discussions. But my question is, will a 9mm FMJ that is shot through the head be lethal enough? As in a instant kill? And also , will this lead to a disfigured face?
Do share what you know much appreciated.
A dirt bag in my neighborhood found out the hard (permanent) way a 380 is perfectly capable of stopping a fight
i worked as an EMT on the night shift in the city, and the majority of the shootings we would go to were conducted with .22lr ,25acp .380acp and 9mm all FMJ and ill testify that all of those rounds will kill a human being. there was a guy who got shot with a 380 at a distance of about 15-20 feet. hit once in the lower back. killed him in 5 minutes. the ER docs say they havent seen anyone hit with anything bigger than a 9mm in decades. and there are a lot of fatal shootings conducted with very small caliber bullets. ive even heard stories of a kid who was shot in the abdomen with a 10 pump bb gun once. he was hit and collapsed. the bb had allegedly passed through his muscle into his aorta. now i didnt witness this but it is a known story. the FBI insists that knock down power or stopping power in a hand gun simply does not exist. id feel very comfortable with my 380 for self defense. why? shot placement. if i am able to use my 2.5″ 380 as intended (belly gun) then i feel i can stop an attack. remember the rule of 3s. 3 rounds, 3 yards, 3 seconds. typical gunfight LE excluded. for self defense youre more likely to be point blank with your attacker than at a distance of 3+ yards. if you dont train in CQB with your defense gun youre missing a huge part. yes shooting 10 yards with your defense gun into the bullseye is impressive but can you ring the x or the bullseye and less than one yard from a holstered position with instinctive shooting in a realistic time? if not youre not as prepared as you think. your attacker is not going to let you gather a sight picture and squeeze. no. stop it. in reality youre going to be totally caught off guard and end up face to face maybe 10 feet distance and you might not have time to get into your weaver stance you might be knocked on your ass using your off hand in the dark during a rain storm. think about that. can you put lead on target effectively fast enough wile being blind sided by an unknown attacker? maybe. maybe not. train train train. if you carry a gun and you wouldnt pick you for back up in a real world emergency then change your game. take a class or read some articles. get out and practice. take any number of handgun defensive shooting classes. youll see what you have that works and what doesnt work. if i can get my gun out and put lead on target untill im no longer being attacked and it was done swiftly and effectively then i am indeed a bad mother****er. i dont need to be larry vickers. but i may as well be to an attacker with little to no tactical training. never be out gunned in a gunfight. always be the better trained man in a gunfight. classes are cheap. coffins are expensive. to sum it all up 7 rounds of 380 at 200~ foot pounds at point blank into the solar plexus should be the end all be all to any attacker. even on drugs. you might get got but in the end hell be got too. if the man requires a magazine and a half to be stopped from killing you then give it to him. im not going to stop plugging untill the attack halts. if you want 90% fatal rounds get a j-frame 357 and use the 158 grain 357B rounds. FBI documented a 96% one stop shot when they were used in real gunfights. if you want a convenient carry gun get the 380 and practice with it.
Option 1
If you have to pull the trigger pull it 3 to 5 times center mass regardless of the caliber
This Shows the mentally of (feeling Safe) by the
“Any Gun” phrase. However, Since JMB had OK
It,,who am I to say No to. It should be more than
Enough “IF” One is placed Center Chest within
25 Feet.
I carry a Ruger 380 LCP everyday in my front right jean pocket. Never had anyone notice it before. Small and light like a thick wallet. I’ll probably never need it. But it makes me feel comfortable and if someone hears shots they’ll prob leave me alone.
What is left out of the conversation is ammo. That makes nearly as much difference as caliber. If you have a 380 get hornady critical defense or better ammo. a top quality 380 is equal or better than the cheap 9mm stuff. That being said the biggest caliber that you can comfortably shoot and carry is the right choice. Self defense purpose guns have mad great strides in the last 5-10 years and there are many ore options than there used to be. I personally carry my 1911 45ACP under the shoulder and the 380 on my ankle in the winter and fall and a 40 sw inside my pants at the belt in summer. My car gun is a 500 SW. Women have the advantage of carrying a purse so size restrictions don’t matter as much for them. A woman should carry at least a 9mm or a 40 SW if she can handle it.
Good video and article, thanks Chris. I think reality shows .380 is a very capable cartridge. It’s interesting when some criticize the very cartridge they fear… most criminals use .22, .25, .32, and .380. So it’s deadly in a badguy’s hands, but for a goodguy it’s just an “underpowered mouse bullet”. I call their bluff.
nearly 80%voted yes.
nice to see that so many have given up the bogus caliber war nonsense
Read few of the previous post. But with age (experience) you begin to learn realities. While I feel under armed with a .380 that is all some people can handle. I would rather be able to hit with a .380 than shoot all the way around a threat with a .500 S&W. The caliber you carry should be the most powerful that you can consistently hit your target with. That is as individual as there are people in the world. Can you improve your performance? Yes, we all can! But it boils down to what feels best for you @ your current level. It has already been said, Rule #1 – Have a gun!!!!
The right ammo in any caliber is about 90% of the equation!
Overall I believe .380 to be a good caliber for civilian self defense unfortunately most arms manufactuers produce .380 pistols too small to be effective other than in your face, get off me ranges. Longer barrels produce higher velocities than shorter barrels and pistols such as the walther PPK, Beretta M84f, bersa thunder .380 would be better, more reliable choices over say, a ruger LCP or M&P bodyguard which are small pocket pistols which dont fit the hand as comfortably as the larger sized .380’s.. Pistols that fill the hand, that you’re able to get all 3 fingers on offer better control & comfort when shooting. Many new shooters would choose a small pocket .380 as their first pistol, and then quickly become frustrated with the gun because for one, small pistols can be finicky, especially with ammo preference. They can get snappy and they are not fun to shoot at the range. As a result, many new shooters don’t get the practice they need and/or bad rap the pistol and end up looking for something else. Is .380 a good caliber for self defense? In the right gun & in the right hands. yes
For recoil sensitive shooters who don’t require something super-tiny, the Sig P250 in .380 ACP looks like it might be a winner. More along the lines of a modernized lightweight Beretta 84 than a micro pocket pistol.
I don’t remember if I looked at a Sig P250, I’ll have to check it out. The only Sig .380’s I’ve seen/handled were the Sig p232 (great pistol btw) P238… I almost bought that P232 😉
Owning several .380″s , a P290 and P938, I find the most practical to conceal carry in Florida weather is a Micro Desert Eagle. It is heavy enough to do a double tap and get the shots inside the circle. The problem with most small guns like LCP is the long trigger pull, light weight and tiny grip.
But do agree the LCP is better than nothing.
Ladies and Gentlemen who Poo-Poo the validity of a .380 as a self-defense weapon, you are cordially invited to stand in front of me as I point and shoot in your direction with my Ruger LCP-C. 100 grain hollow point.
Again, it’s about placement, not about caliber. Vital hits on vital parts of the body = stopping power. Not caliber – placement!
Some of the smaller .380’s like the LCP’s and TCP’s and Bodyguards and such, have small surface areas and therefore make less positive contact with the hand. Ladies come back into the shop complaining about DAO trigger pulls and bad shot placement. They also whine about how snappy they are. A larger handgun with a little more weight is much more pleasant to shoot. But for a pocket pistol or in a purse, which is a bad idea because the first thing a thug takes is your purse. Learned that from one of our gunsmiths. But again for a pocket pistol the smaller .380’s with no external safeties are not the worst option for a lady in a high distress situation. Loaded with Federals HST’s.
I’ve been looking for a pistol for the past year. I’ve always had shotguns for home defense in the past but I don’t care for that option now since j have a husband that sleep walks. I’ll be keeping the pistol in a small safe beside the bed for quick access but it would wake me up if hubby tried to get it to shoot various monsters attacking in his dreams. I’ve tried both 9mm and 380. Last year after looking a bit, I loved the walther pk380. The grip was perfect. Easy to cock.. Then I went to my besties house and shot both of hers..a 9mm(don’t remember the brand) and a ruger 380. I was much more accurate with the 9mm. Time passed and I’ve been busy moving and trying to live with several chronic illnesses. My illnesses cause severe weakness and pain which further complicates my choices. So for Valentine’s Day, hubby decided that flowers and chocolates are just old at this point and since he knows I want a gun, that’s my gift!!!!! Yay! So he took me down last night to a range that rents guns and I tried several. I looked at the 9mm since u was more accurate with if, but none of them were great. I didn’t feel comfortable shooting them. They were heave and had a good bit of recoil. My illnesses cause my joints to be very loose, so recoil is a big thing for me. The last thing j need when trying to defend myself is for my gun recoil to knock my shoulder out of place. Anyway, when switching out to try a different gun, I saw her. There she was in the case, calling my name….the walther pk380. There was the one I wanted but never got to try out. He handed her to me and I knew she was the one. The grip, the ease of use…. So I buy a boxx of 380 rounds and off we go to kill some crazy eyes on a poster. I was pretty accurate with it even with pointing and shooting fast like if someone was coming at me. I’m sure with some practice, I’ll be very accurate with it. So my choice is going to be the 380 because I am very comfortable shooting it, it has very minimal recoil since its one of the larger ones, it’s easy to cock, it’s easy to load the magazine, and the grip is perfect. For me, I’d much rather have a smaller caliber that I can unload into someone quickly and accurately, than a larger caliber that I’m not comfortable with and can’t shoot fast accurately with because of the recoil.
There is a nice review video on YouTube from hickok45 that shows him shooting different caliber weapons through a metal filing cabinet filled with papers/magazines/etc. He was testing to see how well bullets can penetrate, in case someone were hiding behind one.
What did he find? The 380 went through the cabinet just as well as the 9mm and 40. That demonstration was good enough for me in showing how it will do enough damage to stop an attacker.
Head shot count will kill a man caliper does not matter
Hello everyone.. Heres my thought.. If you came at me with a 22short i wouldnt want to be shot with it or any bullet.. For one thing its going to hurt alot and bleed alot and leave a hole and possibly or probably kill me. I think every person in this world would know fear of dying if shot with any gun
I have a sig sauer .380 short 9mm. I love this gun, it is very light and fits my into my hands. Has very little recoil and is very accurate. I am not afraid to use if and when I am attacked or my home is broken into. I am now looking for the Sig Sauer P320 subcompact 9mm, they are hard to find. It will be more cheaper to shoot at the gun range.
I have fired over 500 rounds of various manufacture and weight through mine. The first 100 rounds or so it was very finicky. It would readily cycle Hornady and other top shelf ammo but it would jam with Remington. It now eats almost anything I feed it.
My wife carries a Walther PPK, and while it is a good pistol I like the Sig better.
380 has its place. Especially for the everage law abiding citizen. Being from South Africa which has one of the world’s highest crime rate, and being an emt working in dangerous situations are a norm. Most attackers.,even those that are trained DO NOT WANT TO BE SHOT AT WITH ANYTHING, nor they want or like RESISTANCE from thier victims. So be it a 25acp. Or even a 22Lrp. The sight or idea of any kind of resistance scares them. Mostly sending them running away. With that said if you going to fire a round make sure you
accurate and your timing is in sync. Weather you shooting A 45acp or 22Lrp. Hit your mark and make sure you responsible enough so that innocent bystanders don’t get hurt. Any round can stop an attack. Just shot accurately and place your shot where it counts.
I am a long x gun owner. Any newbie should try dif types. I bring a selection of types to the range,pistols, and let them get a feel for shooting. Some people r just not good with guns and should not own one. Use pepper blaster not spray.